Wednesday, February 4, 2015

Gun Crazy!

Chris in Blaine this morning decided to imply no one ever insisted that Carry and Conceal would lessen or eliminate crime when they were debating the law.  I have spent my day going back in time to find some true jewels from the discussion about Carry and Conceal in 2003 and 2005, plus a few other gems too.

Rep. Linda Boudreau, R-Faribault and Sen. Pat Pariseau, R-Farmington co-sponsored the Carry and Conceal Bill, aka The Minnesota Personal Protection Act , Originally, in 2003, Senate File 842 and House File 261, in 2005, Senate file 2259.

She counted thousands of violent crimes in the 20 Minnesota counties where handgun permits have been most restricted and added: "It's time that we allow people to prevent the violence on themselves." "O.J. Simpson was not seeking a permit, But maybe his wife needed one." - Sen. Pat Pariseau of Farmington
Star Tribune

Sen. Pat Pariseau defends the new conceal-carry law because it imposes sanctions on those who misuse weapons - REBECCA THOMAN Pioneer Press Editorial 5/17/2004  It doesn’t in any way.

Rep. Lynda Boudreau, R-Faribault was the co-sponsor of the bill and while she never directly quoted crime rates herself, her committee hearings made it clear that the intent of the bill was to stop crime: Eight citizens testified before the committee and complained the current conceal-carry law allows sheriffs and police chiefs to deny permits unjustifiably. Theresa Schieffelbein said in a shaky voice that she wouldn't tell legislators how she planned to assure her personal safety. "That sheriff made sure that I was absolutely defenseless." http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-11176.html

Rep. Lynda Boudreau, R-Faribault says the state would be safer because citizens would be able to defend themselves. http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/02/11_scheckt_concealedcarry/

“I think there is some assumption...that people feel they need more protection.”  She predicted that anti-gun and pro-gun groups will quickly learn which business allow guns and which will not, and will make their shopping decisions accordingly - State Rep. Lynda Boudreau (R-Faribault)

"…firearms are not being lost and found by children." Rep. Lynda Boudreau Op Ed May 25 2003 http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=62034  She was WAY off base on this one.

"I'll tell you, this legislation undermines local control. The bill would make it very difficult to deny a permit to all but the most severely mentally impaired or chemically dependent person” - Rice County Sheriff Richard Cook, who was absolutely correct, but was then dismissed dismissed by Rep. Bordreau http://www.southernminn.com/northfield_news/archives/article_758ca113-f069-5afb-ab58-673d19f0a380.html,

Other politicians and advocates who weighed in on the Carry and Conceal law

WCCO-AM radio show, Governor Tim Pawlenty said other states have not experienced more gunplay after making concealed weapons permits easier to get. "The 38 other states that have the (`concealed carry`) law, on a per capita or pro rata basis, are not experiencing any worse incidences of violent crime or gun violence than Minnesota…people will be safer and crime will be deterred." April 28, 2003

“Gov. Pawlenty deserves appreciation for immediately signing this bill…to make Minnesotans safer from crime.” Alan Gottleib http://www.ccrkba.org/?p=382

"For the person who's carrying legally, that person is trained, who's had background checks, who's got this permit legally and is a law-abiding citizen. As a matter fact, to be frank, the fact that there's a few of those people peppered around is reassuring to me because there's finally some folks that I can depend on that may come to my protection," he said. Rep. Fran Bradley, R-Rochester http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/04/23_scheckt_guns/?refid=0

John Lott was a person who was quoted extensively in the gun debate by both politicians and advocates.  The following quotes are ones which were designed to make it seem like carry and conceal would stop all crime.

“the survey I conducted during the fall of 2002 indicates that simply brandishing a gun stops crimes 95 percent of the time, and other surveys have also found high rates.”
John Lott, The Bias Against Guns, p 24 Regnery, March 2003.

The claim that there was something “funny” regarding the slightly different survey estimates is also false. I cited that 95 percent of defensive gun uses involving simple brandishing rather than 98 percent because a new survey was conducted almost six years after the first one.
John R. Lott Jr., Letter, Minneapolis Star Tribune, Aug 13 2003

Guns clearly deter criminals, with Americans using guns defensively over 2 million times each year—4.5 times more frequently than the 500,000 times guns were used to commit crimes in 2001. Over 90 percent of the time simply brandishing the weapon stops an attack.
John R. Lott Jr., Bound to Misfire,Tech Central Station, Nov 7 2003

"The only thing that's going to stop the threat is another armed threat." Rep. Tony Cornish, a Republican from Good Thunder  http://archive.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=508161

I feel better knowing that criminals may think I may be "packing heat." Richard Dischinger, http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/3909201.html

  I wouldn't worry about honest people next to me in church carrying guns," said Sen. Michael Jungbauer, R-East Bethel, a graduate of Moody Bible Institute. "But I would worry about the criminals." Star Tribune

Freedom Wins; Criminals Lose I don't know that I have a huge problem with this - although you can bet when the next church massacre happens, it'll be at a posted (no guns) church. http://www.shotinthedark.info/archives/005702.html

The House vote (2005) comes one day after all House members received an e-mail threatening them if they don't vote in favor of the legislation.

Referring to attempts to amend the Carry and Conceal bill, referring to alternatives being put out by the Democrats – “And the saddest part is, none of this is going to have any effect on violent crime” - John Caile, who represents the interest group Concealed-Carry Reform Now - May 2003

Let's get this very successful, now documented successful law back on the books where it belongs” John Caile, with the gun rights group, Conceal Carry Reform Now! Talking about passing the law in 2005 after struck down in 2003
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/04/27_scheckt_guns/  What’s funny about this quote is there was no documentation at all when he said this. 

But backers say the law actually makes the state a safer place by raising the minimum age of gun owners from 18 to 21, and by making all applicants go through the safety training. By Patrick Condon, Associated Press Writer http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1409748/posts  This never was true, just make believe like a lot of the GOP/pro gun guy promises.

"Women want to be more self-reliant; they want to protect their homes and children on their own," Russ Thurman http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/3911277.html

Something against the carry and conceal aw that was dismissed, but absolutely correct:  Also, the dozen states with the highest rates of firearm deaths all have the system Minnesota is adopting. - http://www.spectatornews.com/opinion/2003/05/01/spectator-staff-editorial-guns-galore/#sthash.rw4fQWZV.dpuf

David Gadberry wrote:
>  If you are in a situation where deadly force might be required to
>  protect yourself or a loved one do you actually think that
>  the police will be around to deal with the situation??? 
>  Of course not - the police can't (and shouldn't) be everywhere. Michael Atherton

Right-to-Carry States
Since 1991, the number of privately owned firearms in the U.S. has increased by 70-75 million, the number of right-to-carry states has increased from 15 to 40, and violent crime has decreased 38%. Violent Crime
Three out of four violent crimes committed in the U.S. do not involve firearms. Since 1991, the number of privately owned firearms in the U.S. has increased by 70-75 million, and the nation's murder rate has decreased 43%. (BATFE and FBI)  NRA website

In regards to the first case of a Conceal and Carry permit holder shooting another individual "The guy decided to be a murderer. His permit had nothing to do with it” Joe Olson, president of Concealed Carry Reform Now http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/05/18_scheckt_guns/

“The facts are every time guns have been allowed, concealed-carry has been allowed, the crime rate has gone down.” -Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Tex.), on “Fox News Sunday,” Dec. 16, 2012


Then there is this, a look at part of the real motivation of the pro gun crowd:



How, a lot of those are directly on point too!  

So now, a intellectual coward like Chris will say, "that doesn't matter!  It's all about personal safety!"  Are you implying, that ever since the law was finally passed in 2005, not one Carry and Conceal person has been around a crime as it's happened?  If it's about personal safety, and they had the chance to use the weapon, why didn't they?  We can deduce then either the gun was useless because the person realized they were in over their head, or they were too afraid to use it.  Regardless, crime has happened, people with guns have been around those crimes, and they have done nothing to make themselves, or the people around them, safer, outside of not using the weapon.  

Keep your weapons at home.  Know your arguments about Carry and Conceal have been exposed as the lies they are.

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